Despite his logical approach, I have to say I don't like the tone he takes when talking about overweight people. From comments he has made in interviews, along with descriptors in the show (ugly, disgusting, horrible, etc.) and the caricature of the junk food eating guy at the gas station, there is an element of visual vanity instead of the notion of 'I need to lose weight because I'm unhealthy.' This attitude might turn off a lot off a lot of people before they even listen to what he has to say.
What Alton Brown has to say about eating a healthy diet makes sense on the chalk board, but needs to be fleshed out more to make sense when you're planning your menu for the week. It would be helpful if he posted an example menu for a week or two on his website so we can see how he managed to fit all of the foods on his list into his daily routine, and also how he planned meals. Of course, anyone who's cooking for a family knows the real kicker: how do you change your eating habits and change the habits of everyone in your household at the same time? Additional recipes would be great too. The items he prepared on the show sound delicious.
Well, I'd have to try the avocado-sardine toast before I can say how good it is, but the fruit smoothie and ginger almonds make my mouth water. I do love kippered herrings, but finding good avocados, especially for a reasonable price, seems to be difficult lately. The smoothie looks really good. Alton has a problem with milk tempting him to eat cookies and such, plus he mentioned he's lactose intolerant on a previous episode, but it would have been informative to compare the nutrition of milk vs. soy milk for making a smoothie. The blender was a top notch Vita-Mix model like you'd see in a restaurant though! Finally, I'd skip the pepper in preparing the almonds, but that's just my personal taste. I'll have to look up more almond variations so eating one variety doesn't get boring.
The book. No Alton has not written an autobiography on his diet yet, though he has mentioned the idea. I have mixed feelings. While it would be interesting to know all the details, it also would move his image one step closer to the Rachel Ray type of over-marketing that he has managed to avoid. I also find a heavy dose of irony in buying a few cook books full of delectable dishes like fried chicken and lava cake, then picking up a diet book by the same author. There is one major tidbit of information that Alton left out of the show, and one that was crucial to his losing fifty pounds: EXERCISE.
Yes, that's right, he didn't just follow the diet plan as laid out on the chalk board. He also had to combine a heavy dose of exercise into the regimen. There's no easy way to lose weight, at least not any healthy and easy way. I see Alton's lists of foods as a new way of eating for him, not a method for losing weight. If you're going to lose weight you have to burn off all those extra calories you have stored. He touched on the issue of taking in too much energy at the gas station, but never really got around to how you are going to get rid of what you already have stored. This would veer off course for a food show, but it gives the impression that you just follow his food list and you're going to shed pounds. I was surprised by this omission since AB's always explaining cause and effect or how and why things happen.
Overall, a good show. I like the recipe selection and would like to see more along those lines. I like the logical way he went about changing the way he eats, but don't like that he failed to mention how much exercise was involved in burning off 50 pounds. I also have some questions remaining when I look at his lists and think about how I would implement such a program and I'll leave you with those.
Questions for Alton Brown:
- How do milk and soy milk compare nutritionally? They're two very different items.
- What happened to pork and poultry?
- Alcohol: are you talking mixed drinks or beer too?
- What about other common food items: rice, eggs, cheese, other seafood, etc.?
- Just how many copies of Good Eats: The Early Years do you have sitting around the studio?
46 comments:
I have this waiting on the dvr, so the main comment I have before watching it is about the choice of avocado-sardine toast. Dieting can often feel like suffering, so why did he decide to provide a recipe that most people would likely not be inclined to eat? I was hoping he would talk about ways to adapt recipes to be more low fat; imho more people would be happier eating foods they like prepared with healthier methods than having to limit their choices to lists of certain foods.
Hi - I work the diet biz and deal with a lot of programs and people. Alton has created what many consider a "simple" program. Eat this, not that, or at least don't eat "that" very often. It works for a lot of people. Others can't stand it because they want choices - weight watchers points system works for them because they get to eat small quantities of anything - even french fries.
So - it all depends on the person. I found him to be enthusiastic about his approach, like most successful people are at the outset. (Ever have a friend that was highly successful on Atkins back in the day??). The long haul will be interesting to see - tho his "eat this" foods do provide a wide variety of options.
As for the actual recipes - no, I am not eating sardines - but I tend not to like a lot of Alton's tastes - I just like the show :) Should he choose to expand with more recipes in alignment with his plan, he has a lot of ynmmy foods to choose from.
And - all alcohol is empty calories, some say metabolized in the same way as fat/carbs. So no luck there!!
Too true about the sardines, Karen. There's no way my wife will eat them and only eats salmon once in a while. So how can I put 'oily fish' on the plate 3x week? It's really difficult when you cook for a family since it cuts down your choices or forces you to eat separately and do twice the work!
Anon, thanks for the good comments. I am one of those 'likes variety' people, and it does seem his list provides for that a bit.
I found in odd/interesting that he said he did not consult a doctor in starting this regimen.
latimes.com/features/health/la-he-milk19-2009oct19,0,671477.story
latimes.com
Poring over facts about milk: cow's, goat's, soy, almond, rice and hemp
By Elena Conis >>>
October 19, 2009
.....Soy milk
Because soy milk is made from a plant, it contains no cholesterol and negligible amounts of saturated fat: just half a gram per cup.
Compared with whole cow's or goat's milk, it is lower in calories too, but a glass still provides the same levels of key nutrients present in those milks, including calcium, protein, vitamin A, vitamin D and potassium. That's partly because soybeans contain calcium, protein and potassium. But soy milk is also fortified to be nutritionally comparable to cow's milk.
Soy milk's lack of cholesterol and low levels of saturated and total fat have made it a popular choice for people looking to improve their heart health...
Hi M',
Yeah, maybe it goes along with his distrust of the FDA, etc. I remember in one of his books he mentioned being skeptical about using deodorant :-)
I did a review of this on my blog too. I had some of the same questions you did, but I had others too.
One I did have was how this played out in terms of a menu. I ran the numbers and was skeptical about the smoothie as breakfast. Even with the soymilk, it's low in protein. And a modest amount of fat is useful for both satiety and nutrient absorption. Though I've already gotten one comment from someone who tried the smoothie this AM and was satisfied. Still needs more protein tho!
Not sure why you have a question on the alcohol. Unless you're drinking a bloody mary, most drinks fit in his low-nutrient, high-energy category. Then again, there is the red wine/resveratrol issue; Mediterranean diet folks would argue for more wine than 1x/week.
One I didn't have was the question of exercise. For a guy Alton's size and general physical shape, losing 50 lbs in 9 months is not that big of a task. This averages out to a pound and a half a week, or about 750 cals per day. I could imagine getting rid of the junk and processed food could easily account for that kind of a deficit without tons of additional exercise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for exercise for health, but its usefulness re weight loss is questionable and/or controversial (see Time's "Why Exercise Won't Make You Thin" from last spring).
I'd rate this as the second wasted new show of the season. A smoothie and sardine toast hardly qualify as "Good Eats" and deserve 30 minutes of air time. Of all the healthy things he possibly ate for 9 months that he could have shared that thousands of people would have watched him make and said "wow, I'd like to try that" he chose sardines and a smoothie??? How many people dashed out to the store and going on the sardine toast diet today?
I still have it on tivo so I'll watch it again, but I don't even think I learned anything from watching this episode. I always watch his shows even if its something I know I'll never make because they are usually funny and educational. I'm not sure there was much of either. "A doughnut is bad for you!" No duh.
A smoothie? Really?
I'm truly excited about the prospect of having Alton writing a nutrition cookbook. I think he is one of the best chefs on the food network, and I admire his desire to deviate from what conventional American dieting is. (no red meat, no regular milk, swedish fish)
His foods may be strange, but I think that if we want to change our health... we should change our food! I love to hear his take on health foods.
Also, sure he doesn't mention exercise, but he doesn't need to tell adults exercise aids weight loss... Anyways, he's a TV chef, not a physical trainer.
Great Job Alton. You are the man.
I love AB, don't get me wrong. But ever since his 10th anniversary special, I've seen vanity creep more and more into his schtick.
I love Good Eats, and my partner and I have been working to each lose just over (him) or just under (me) over the past 2 years, so we were excited for this episode. We're both within about 30 pounds of our goals, but it's been a long, hard process. 3 recipes is not enough, and a smoothie for breakfast is absurd. I'll sometimes do one as a treat, but I need fiber to feel full and satisfied in the morning, so I hope people don't get too caught up in the "it worked for him and I like him" factor.
I had this on my DVR so I waited to read your post until after I had a chance to watch it. It will definitely be interesting to see how Good Eats episodes change in upcoming episodes.
A lot of the information he offers I've seen before in the Men's Health Abs Diet program, which I followed to get me down from the 319 I was to where I am today, which is still to high.
I would have to imagine that pork and poultry would still be major protein components of his diet. At the very least they would have to be for me. I can live with rationing red meat intake, but I would not be able to stick to a diet without pork.
I need to get back on the wagon myself, so I'm going to give his smoothie thing a try. I don't have a $500 Vita Mix lying around, but I'll somehow manage :) Though I'll probably need to supplement it by adding in some egg whites just to make sure the protein content is there.
You also have to remember, this wasn't Alton's diet plan for a nation. This was what Alton did for himself, his eating habits, and the way he wanted to lose weight. This show was done more for this is how I did it, as well as sharing some basic food things (spend your calories wisely, eat more good stuff, less bad stuff). He love sardines, used them as his fish, so shared one way to make them. He's promoted them for quite a long time now. Smoothies are great ways of getting fiber and fruit veg into a diet in an easy way. If it's not enough protein for you, add whey powder or milk (we stay away from soy products), and add something else to go with it. It's HIS way of doing it for him, but you can adjust for yourself.
Also, exercise did play a major role in AB's loss...he's become a runner (eats like it now, too), so for him, that was half of the battle. Not just losing the weight, but being in better shape along with it.
He has said all along that he never wants to do a how-to diet show. The legal implications alone keep them from doing it. He just wanted to share how he did it because there are always so many questions asked...so he offered up 3 of his favorites.
I think a big point that AB made was that this is not a diet but a change in diet...he projected this as change in the way he approaches food...he switched to a nutrient dense diet as a opposed to a calorie dense diet. I also think he hinted at exercise (the whole lifting weight thing) as part of this lifestyle change.
If you want to add more protein to the smoothie add some yogurt...4 oz. of FAGE 0% Total yogurt has 10g of protein.
And while I won't be adding any fish (especially sardines!) to my diet (can't stand fish/seafood...yuck!) a lot of what he talked about I'm already trying to change in my (and my family's) daily food intake. Basically lots and lots more veggies/fruits and less meat and sweets.
I think he'd said it had only been 9 months since he started. He's still in the "honeymoon" period of his weight loss. It will be interesting to watch over the next year or two. Hopefully, he won't fall into an Oprah cycle. Two years ago I lost 30 lbs. due to a diagnosis of type II diabetes. I'm discovering losing it was the easy part. Keeping it off is becoming a struggle.
Annmartina I wish you (and Alton) the best of continued success! As you rightly note - weight loss is one thing, weight maintenance is quite another, and frequently the hardest struggle. Our society is not geared to support healthy eating, exercise and stress reduction - all helpful components in healthy weight.
His new food selections (not a diet!) seem very interesting and easy to follow , but has anyone wondered what happened to chicken?!?!
Why's that not on the menu? Even just plain old boiled chicken should be OK, right?
Tried the smoothie, loved it- although my poor mixer needed more liquid to properly process it. I think ONE of the goals of the smoothie idea was something quick and tasty. I understand that some people may want more protein in it, but you can certainly add many things to accomplish that.
Sardine toast- I like sardines (sue me), but that seems like too much trouble.
The spicy almonds sound great, but it would have been fun to have a sweet option as well, and kept in his common sweet/savory themes.
Not his worst episode, but not his best either. The two things that bugged me the most was his negative comments about being overweight (body image issues) and his 'recommendations' for a blender that are only met by a $300+ unit- very different than his earlier recommendations. I like him better when he gives guidelines rather than apparently shilling for a manufacturer.
did he say he wrote a book about his weight loss plan? can't find anything on it.
I agree. This episode was about how AB lost his weight. I was at one of his speaking events on his book tour and everyone asked "How'd you do it?" This episode is his answer to that question. It might not work for everyone, but it's what he did.
No, there's no book. He has mentioned, on his last book tour, that he might write one in the future, but the book on the episode was just a prop.
Is it me or has Alton been off his game this season? I have been a fan of Good Eats since it began. I even modeled a high school biology project after his 'fats train.' And I did enjoyed his sardine toast. I thought it was an interesting way to eat sardines and my mother actually went out and bought sardines after I told her about the application thingy (aka recipe) However, this show seemed to be so much more about tooting his own horn than explaining ways to eat healthier. He also seemed to be judging overweight people. Shaming people is not the way to help them. I was obese (40lbs over the recommended weight) as a child/preteen but was able to change my eating habits as a teenager and have maintained a healthy weight since, but that doesn't give me the right to judge others. I know what its like on both sides of the fence. I know that all large people aren't greedy, lazy, and lack will power. I also know several rail thin people who can lounge around and eat in one day what I eat in a week and never gain weight. (Okay, that's an exaggeration, but almost!)
Honestly, if he is going to have this egotistical attitude now that he's thinner, I wish he had stayed a larger size.
I hope the other new shows are more interesting and a return to what made the show great--funny, but informative food facts and application. I hope the focus returns to the food. Not the host's weight or ideological causes, but what food are actually good eats.
That's good for him he changed his eating habits for 9 months and lost weight. OK, he made a show about it to answer questions. Sure he's as "slightly sarcastic" as ever; however, my question is what will Good Eats programs be about NOW? Wouldn't they have to change it to another name?! Are there even going to be any further episodes with the new skinny/gaunt-looking AB? It just seems there's now no point in the Good Eats show we all used to enjoy watching...
I was also pissed off about the language he used when talking about his appearance and being overweight. It was offensive. We know losing 50 lbs is a lot. Circling your belly on screen grabs? Body issues much? Maybe you should work that out in therapy. Do you really need to put a huge block of lard out there and repeatedly tell us how disgusting it is? Haven't you cooked with lard on your show? AB used to be my favorite Food Network chef. What is it about losing weight that turns people into self-righteous, judgmental pricks?
As for the "diet" itself, not everyone should eat oily fish 3x a week. It's recommended that pregnant/breastfeeding women only eat 2 servings/week max. I thought he would at least mention this. But then, I guess he's only thinking about himself.
@Rachel - I think his reasoning for eating oily fish such as Sardines are for the omega fatty acids they contain, and their potential to aid in burning off the types of fats that are not good for you.
I started on his smoothie breakfast diet this week, and although its expensive (the smoothies weigh in a little over $3 each) I can already tell an increase in my energy levels (After just two days of this regimen) and I know my fiber intake has at least doubled.
I've actually watched this episode 3 times now, and I really think its one of the more beneficial episodes of Good Eats I've seen. *shrug*
As a cablevision subscriber I missed Live and let Diet. Has anyone seen the episode online? I have looked all over, but no luck.
OK, I made the sardine toast.
Remember in college how you'd dig in the ashtray of your car for change (assuming you didn't smoke) so you could afford some groceries? Remember how you'd buy the cheapest things you could find and throw them together hoping to somehow improve on the taste of pot noodles? This recipes screams of that kind of desperation.
I'm not one much for sardines. Sardines were one of those "broke in college" kind of things. They were cheap, and plentiful, and I choked them down because I had little option otherwise. And while I managed to develop a taste for them eventually, as I left college to join the Army, so to I left that taste for little fish in a can.
The one saving grace to this "dish" is that there are so many other strong flavors going on that they mask the fish. I think that is the ultimate goal of it. Between the avocado, lemon vest, vinegar, sourdough, and lemon squeezed over it at the end the fishiness is lost. And that's a good thing. A very, very good thing.
Honestly, I don't see how anyone could eat this with any regularity. I ate this thinking this is the kind of thing people convince themselves is good when really they wouldn't eat it were they not on a diet. And to me that's a key point. If you wouldn't eat this sort of thing just because, then there is no hope of it being part of a successful lifestyle change.
ROTFLMAO! Exactly!
I tried to get my 6 year old son to eat some mustard sauce sardines last night. No chance. He was excited until he smelled it, then literally ran away screaming "Nooooo!".
Seriously though, I bet you could substitute tuna or salmon. I may try that.
Smoothie is in the fridge. Episode is saved 'until I delete' on the Tivo. His lists are in my Palm. Be great if 2 years from now I was half my weight and still loving the smoothie!
I would like to see menu plans that cover the lists. I'm sure they'll show up as people try to follow what worked for AB.
Thanks for the show AB, give me some more!
Gosh I loved this episode. Saw it last night while I was running through the TV. Sometimes I watch Good Eats if it's about something I like, or I think it'll be a good episode. Two months ago I started wanting to lose weight so when I saw the title of this show, I knew I wanted to watch it. I am so glad I did!
I haven't had a ton of problems losing weight. (8 lb in two months)I cut out soda and I do bike on my cycle everyday for 30 minutes but anything helpful like Good Eats is always great. The first thing I really loved was the smoothie. Ever since I was a kid my breakfast was always milk, chocolate milk (or when milk got expensive) kool aid. I think because of that I cannot stand to eat anything solid in the morning before 9:00. Even a savory breakfast of egg or waffles I am squeamish about until at least 9:30. Now my breakfast is nothing or Carnation Instant.
Getting an actual breakfast like a healthy smoothie though with such great benefits, I can't wait to try it!
I love sardines too, and I didn't know they'd actually be that good for me. Great tip. That's what I always love about Good Eats, it always has great tips.
Last but not least, AB does look a bit on the skinny side but my mom did too at first when she started losing a ton. He is a healthy man though, knows about his food, and his body will probably even out here soon as it adjusts.
As for the being a 'prick about losing weight' and 'making others feel bad'? I don't believe any of it. Alton Brown is great with food and I am sure he eats a ton of the stuff he is supposed too. The smoothie and the avocado sardine were just two recipes he really loved that he wanted to share. As for not being as funny or belittling people, I don't think he did. What usually makes his show funny is his gags and props and such. Several episodes focus on stereotypical images for laughter. Remember the cowboy with the chili for example? I think many people watching the episode thought he was making fun of them, but he was just using his usual gags. I didn't take it personally, and he isn't belittling people, he is wanting to help. It's the reason he made this good eat episode.
I can't wait to see his future episodes and see if anymore great and healthy recipes sneak in I can steal too.^^
Does anyone know what blender AB used in this episode? The scale? He shows us his favorite gadgets and then leaves us hanging as to which ones they are.
It's a Vita-Mix blender, top of the line commercial type. Not something you'd typically see at home, but will prolly last forever.
http://tinyurl.com/yja2ohh
Thanks, One SAHD Dude!
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I know this post is old, but I felt the need (or want) to comment. I don't think that anyone can take this episode as "THE ONLY TO EAT ON THE AB DIET" or anything like that. Alton was simply letting the world in on HIS plan and some things that HE likes, which is really what his show has always been about.
That said, I have been using his guidelines for my own good recently. This is my third week, and I've lost about 10 lbs or so (yes, I am a pretty big guy). I've had the smoothie every morning except for about 2 times. It's quite economical if you shop at Sam's or Costco. A 4lb bag of Blueberries is about $5-$6 and a 6lb bag of mixed fruit is about $8. Bananas are cheap, and at my local grocer Pomegranate juice is relatively inexpensive. I use 1% milk instead of Soy or Skim, and about once or twice a week I sub plain yogurt.
As for the Oily fish, I primarily stick to tuna and salmon. I have a can of Bristling's in the cupboard, but I'm just wary about the taste. I'm sure I'd love them if I tried. I also eat skinless chicken breasts regularly, some shrimp, and of course lots of other veggies. I primarily grill everything, and I often marinade in something, but of course I watch the sodium. I admit to eating sweet potatoes more than 3 times a week, and that's perfectly fine, since they are pretty much food from heaven. Also at Sam's in a 5lb bag of organic carrots for $5, which is also a steal. There are plenty of veggies AB did not go over, like asparagus, brussels sprouts, etc., that I eat regularly too. I also allow a little olive oil for cooking.
Bottom line is, eating this way is very good for you, and it's something we should all be doing for the most part, within reason. Losing weight is all about setting a calorie goal for a day, then consuming and burning slightly less than that calorie amount. Fat doesn't have as much to do with it, but you can't eat all fat of course. Moderation and common sense are key.
BTW, my energy levels are through the roof, and I feel great and more in tune with life. If you try, you can pretty much anything work.
There are about 500-700 mg of sodium in a can of sardines. That sort of kills it for me. Shame too, I really like them!
This is not one of my favorite episodes. However, I make that smoothie way more often than any of AB's other recipes.
I buy a 2+-cup bag of frozen mixed fruit for each smoothie, which gets expensive. I also use GREEK yogurt (14g protein!), soymilk (7g protein), grape juice, and a frozen banana. Liquids first, or else my blender will go on strike. Occasionally I'll add some honey, especially if I'm using a grape/acai blend.
It's really yummy, and I love that it's healthy too! One batch makes enough for me AND my husband. Although, I could probably have one all to myself and be pretty happy too!
Sounds good, Juliet. I've been on a grape juice kick myself. I already depleted my stock of the homemade stuff and now have a few bottles of Welch's on the counter.
For those concerned about the calories in the breakfast smoothie - I think you are missing the point. He explains that you need gas to go, you just don't need more gas than you can burn. Keeping with analogy, when you first accelerate your car you burn the most gas, and when you are cruising on the express way, you burn less. Your day can be described in that way too. You need more gas (calories) in the morning, and less in the evening.
The point is - YES - you need to cut calories, but not so much in the morning. You should be consuming most of your daily calories in the morning.
I think this is the single most reason I see people fail diets. They try to cut ALL calories/Cards from their diet and they get tired and feel terrible and cannot maintain.
I lost 40lbs and I did it by actually eating TWICE as much as I was during breakfast than I was - spitting lunch into two snack like meals and eating a healthy dinner. (most important - I let myself have a cheeseburger only once a week). I made it at the end of the week as a prize/goal.
Why can't you just appreciate it as good advice rather than coming down on one side or the other. The advice worked for Alton, as you can see. But it's pretty obvious he's also been doing a lot of exercising at something.
My experience of weight loss is that it stays off best when lost gradually. A while back i was watching a panel of doctors on some 20/20 type show and one mentioned that there is no nutritional excuse for sugar whatsoever. A light went on in my head and I figured out what Alton was saying about calorie vs. nutrient rich food.
I swore off sugar and cut starch way back and lost 15 pounds in 5 months.
It has crept back and now I am going to to do it again. But if you don't get off your butt and keep it in motion somehow, it just makes it a lost cause.
Turn off the computer and go take a long walk. Garden. Clean house. But do not just sit there criticising someone else for losing that weight.
Easiest way to lose weight is to only drink one soda and eat one donut a month. When you do, you'll realize that you don't really wantot eat more than one.
Although I keep thinking how the program before this one was all about making home-made donuts. Not something I'd do anyway.
My son got married New Years Eve of 2009. He is 6'2 and weighed 260 lb. In January 2010 he began the Alton Brown diet and limited his calories to 1500/day ( he logged everything he ate on his i-phone). Today he weighs 191 lb nine months later. He didn't do any new exercise during this time either. He lost about 70 lbs in 9 months, he's 30 years old...feels great and plans to maintain at this weight. I just shipped him a suit that he wore in highschool his senior year from 1998 to wear to an upcoming wedding. Alton's diet works!
I think that Alton's comments were taken wrongly. He was only referring to himself at that weight, and not the appearance of anyone else with a weight problem. Being overweight causes self-loathing. I'm sorry to inform some people, but most people are not happy being overweight. If they claim to be, they are deceiving themselves.
If people were happy having a weight problem, blogs focused on dieting woudn't turn up in such abundance-filled with people falsely claiming to love being fat.
He wasn't insulting anyone but himself. I have to wonder why comments he made ABOUT HIMSELF were taken as a personal attack on anyone else. He didn't like what he saw and did something about it. Good for him.
-Stacey E.
Had actually tried the buff smoothie before and it is really good.
I think Alton made a great food show about what worked for him to lose weight. Don't moan that he didn't lay out an entire weight lose plan (w/exercise). He stuck with his expertise: food! I think Alton's lists are integrate-able with balanced ways of losing weight. I use WebMD & Bob Greene to work out the rest of my plan.
One thing. Something that makes this enterprise more work, but worth it. On my own "0 times a week list" I have to add high-fructose corn syrup. Or at least on the "1x per week" list. By doing that I just seem to automatically re-pattern my eating around whole healthy food. That's what's working for me to lose weight.
All I can say here is... if Lou Ferrigno comes out with his own Juicer, they better show him juicing something green.
I have no problems with sardines, but like someone here has stated, the taste of the rest of your household will have to be considered. I've tried hiding the sardines within dishes that my family would normally like, but the biggest challenge was making them hardly notice that the sardines were ever there.
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